I'm not sure I agree that such scenes are meant for titillation. Most men (myself included) recoil from the idea of causing anyone pain and certainly don't enjoy watching someone in pain. It doesn't matter whether they are male or female. So in most stories where the protagonist is male, the payoff is in seeing the hero take out his vengeance on the torturer. In terms of a woman being tortured it triggers the "knight in shining armor" part of my male self (and of most of the men I know) where we want to rescue the woman...or see her rescued...again with the payoff being the torturer getting his comeuppance. In the case of a strong woman heroine such as Ripley in the Alien franchise I think that part could have easily been cast as male to largely the same effect, the point being that what she was going through, if it was cast with a man, would be unremarkable. In terms of River Tam I think Whedon was yanking our chains a bit, triggering the whole damsel in distress thing when really River was more badass than anyone in the crew. If I remember right this was particularly shown in movie Serenity.
There's no doubt that a lot of men like strong women characters; look at how many video games popular with male gamers feature women as the main characters (Laura Croft from the Tomb Raider series as an example). I won't deny that an attractive, scantilly clad woman isn't titillating and that can be gratuitous (The Fifth Element is a good example); I'm just disagreeing with the violence/torture component being there for titillation.
Either way it's an interesting point; it will certainly give me a different perspective next time I watch an Alien movie or an episode of Firefly!
River was badass for sure but she was also infantilized. She doesn’t function like an adult woman (or even a teenaged woman)—she’s got the reactions of a toddler.
That knight-to-the-rescue impulse is totally there, yes! There is the edge, though, of a sort of sadistic enjoyment too. This is not always and I wouldn’t say all men’s reactions are the same either. But in this trope it’s a little insidious thorn. As far as badass women video game characters, you’re right about Lara Croft but then she’s designed with those giant gazongas, too. She’s much more sexualized than the Nathan Drakes or the Ezio Auditores just in the essentials of her design.
Fun fact about Ripley! She was originally written as a male character. It was Sigourney Weaver that changed it for the filmmakers because she ROCKS. But I talk about Ripley a lot in PBFT #5: Mother Knows Best.
I agree that River was infantilized in the extreme; I would also argue that Whedon is again yanking our chain with the "protect the women and children" impulse most men have vs. her not needing to be protected. This makes the payoff of the bad guys getting their's much more satisfying!
As to Laura Croft, admiring women for their strength and also being sexually attracted to them are not mutually exclusive...in fact, there may be a sort of synergy between the two? Certainly comic book heroines/supervillains such as Wonder Woman, Batgirl, Cat Woman, etc. have always played on that dynamic (my fave was Jane Grey/aka Phoenix).
I did know that about Ripley, which is why I chose it. What's interesting is that because of the change in sexes in the role (in Alien at least), the dialogue after Ripley takes command and faces disrespect from the crew comes off as sexist, but would equally come off as older men disrespecting a younger junior officer (Ripley was third officer on the Nostromo). That's a male trope (the grizzled, experienced NCO vs the youthful officer) that translates well into seeing the same behavior as sexist. I was going to actually use the example of Sarah Connor, who undergoes in the first Terminator movie the complete "hero's journey" from ordinary to bad-ass, but Ripley was better!
I guess since I don't work in Hollywood I don't really know to what degree, if any, these ideas even matter...it may have been "the narrative of the hero/heroine getting tortured but ultimately turning the tables on their torturer" may have been as deep as it ever got! But it's fun to talk about!
I look forward to your other posts on this as they become available!
He's very young (in the book he's, what, eight when he first enters training?)
On a different note, I didn't see the most recent Pradator movie (_Prey_) but I'd be curious if it gets credit for avoiding the trope. The protagonist is young (the actress was 22?), but I didn't get the impression from reviews that she was infantalized or sexualized.
Like 10, maybe? But even at that young age he’s treated as an adult. Whereas the Born Sexy Yesterday trope characters are treated as children even though they’re ostensibly adults.
Yanno, I never ended up seeing that recent Predator either, though I heard nothing but good things about it. I’ll have to get to it and see if it is indeed an exception.
It's been a while since I've read it, and when I first wrote the comment I was thinking he was 12 or so, but wikipedia says younger ("Once at Battle School, Graff and the other leaders covertly work to keep Ender isolated. ...The cadets participate in competitive war simulations in zero gravity, where Ender quickly masters the competition with novel tactics. To further wear Ender down, he is promoted to command a new army composed of raw recruits, then pitted against multiple armies at once, but Ender's success continues. . . . [later] Ender, now ten years old, is promoted to Command School. ")
I don't think it's quite right to say that he's treated as an adult. He's treated as capable, but very clearly manipulated by the commanders. It's intended to evoke the moral problems of child soldiers, but the reason why I made the connection was thinking of Buffy's relationship with the watchers -- which she initially thinks of as supportive but ends up feeling manipulated.
Right, yah good point. I may be thinking that because it sort of feels that way? Just because we’re mostly in his POV with very few branches off from that .
I'm not sure I agree that such scenes are meant for titillation. Most men (myself included) recoil from the idea of causing anyone pain and certainly don't enjoy watching someone in pain. It doesn't matter whether they are male or female. So in most stories where the protagonist is male, the payoff is in seeing the hero take out his vengeance on the torturer. In terms of a woman being tortured it triggers the "knight in shining armor" part of my male self (and of most of the men I know) where we want to rescue the woman...or see her rescued...again with the payoff being the torturer getting his comeuppance. In the case of a strong woman heroine such as Ripley in the Alien franchise I think that part could have easily been cast as male to largely the same effect, the point being that what she was going through, if it was cast with a man, would be unremarkable. In terms of River Tam I think Whedon was yanking our chains a bit, triggering the whole damsel in distress thing when really River was more badass than anyone in the crew. If I remember right this was particularly shown in movie Serenity.
There's no doubt that a lot of men like strong women characters; look at how many video games popular with male gamers feature women as the main characters (Laura Croft from the Tomb Raider series as an example). I won't deny that an attractive, scantilly clad woman isn't titillating and that can be gratuitous (The Fifth Element is a good example); I'm just disagreeing with the violence/torture component being there for titillation.
Either way it's an interesting point; it will certainly give me a different perspective next time I watch an Alien movie or an episode of Firefly!
River was badass for sure but she was also infantilized. She doesn’t function like an adult woman (or even a teenaged woman)—she’s got the reactions of a toddler.
That knight-to-the-rescue impulse is totally there, yes! There is the edge, though, of a sort of sadistic enjoyment too. This is not always and I wouldn’t say all men’s reactions are the same either. But in this trope it’s a little insidious thorn. As far as badass women video game characters, you’re right about Lara Croft but then she’s designed with those giant gazongas, too. She’s much more sexualized than the Nathan Drakes or the Ezio Auditores just in the essentials of her design.
Fun fact about Ripley! She was originally written as a male character. It was Sigourney Weaver that changed it for the filmmakers because she ROCKS. But I talk about Ripley a lot in PBFT #5: Mother Knows Best.
I agree that River was infantilized in the extreme; I would also argue that Whedon is again yanking our chain with the "protect the women and children" impulse most men have vs. her not needing to be protected. This makes the payoff of the bad guys getting their's much more satisfying!
As to Laura Croft, admiring women for their strength and also being sexually attracted to them are not mutually exclusive...in fact, there may be a sort of synergy between the two? Certainly comic book heroines/supervillains such as Wonder Woman, Batgirl, Cat Woman, etc. have always played on that dynamic (my fave was Jane Grey/aka Phoenix).
I did know that about Ripley, which is why I chose it. What's interesting is that because of the change in sexes in the role (in Alien at least), the dialogue after Ripley takes command and faces disrespect from the crew comes off as sexist, but would equally come off as older men disrespecting a younger junior officer (Ripley was third officer on the Nostromo). That's a male trope (the grizzled, experienced NCO vs the youthful officer) that translates well into seeing the same behavior as sexist. I was going to actually use the example of Sarah Connor, who undergoes in the first Terminator movie the complete "hero's journey" from ordinary to bad-ass, but Ripley was better!
I guess since I don't work in Hollywood I don't really know to what degree, if any, these ideas even matter...it may have been "the narrative of the hero/heroine getting tortured but ultimately turning the tables on their torturer" may have been as deep as it ever got! But it's fun to talk about!
I look forward to your other posts on this as they become available!
Loving this conversation!
Me too!
"If Buffy the Vampire Slayer were a teenaged boy?"
My first thought is that the male equivalent of Buffy is Ender from _Ender's Game_ (or at least the equivalent plot-wise; he isn't sexualized).
Which isn't to disagree with any of your points.
I can see that, yeah! But, like you’ve noticed, no infantilization or sexualization. But yeah!
He's very young (in the book he's, what, eight when he first enters training?)
On a different note, I didn't see the most recent Pradator movie (_Prey_) but I'd be curious if it gets credit for avoiding the trope. The protagonist is young (the actress was 22?), but I didn't get the impression from reviews that she was infantalized or sexualized.
Like 10, maybe? But even at that young age he’s treated as an adult. Whereas the Born Sexy Yesterday trope characters are treated as children even though they’re ostensibly adults.
Yanno, I never ended up seeing that recent Predator either, though I heard nothing but good things about it. I’ll have to get to it and see if it is indeed an exception.
It's been a while since I've read it, and when I first wrote the comment I was thinking he was 12 or so, but wikipedia says younger ("Once at Battle School, Graff and the other leaders covertly work to keep Ender isolated. ...The cadets participate in competitive war simulations in zero gravity, where Ender quickly masters the competition with novel tactics. To further wear Ender down, he is promoted to command a new army composed of raw recruits, then pitted against multiple armies at once, but Ender's success continues. . . . [later] Ender, now ten years old, is promoted to Command School. ")
I don't think it's quite right to say that he's treated as an adult. He's treated as capable, but very clearly manipulated by the commanders. It's intended to evoke the moral problems of child soldiers, but the reason why I made the connection was thinking of Buffy's relationship with the watchers -- which she initially thinks of as supportive but ends up feeling manipulated.
Right, yah good point. I may be thinking that because it sort of feels that way? Just because we’re mostly in his POV with very few branches off from that .